'Like Trying to Get to Saturn': The Messthetics on Covering Sonny Sharrock's 'Ask the Ages'

Ahead of a full-album cover show with frequent collaborator James Brandon Lewis, the genre-blending trio discusses adapting and inhabiting the 1991 avant-jazz classic

The Messthetics and James Brandon Lewis will cover Sonny Sharrock’s ‘Ask the Ages’ live in Washington, D.C., on Friday, Nov. 28. (Photograph: Shervin Lainez)

As a huge fan of both the Messthetics and Sonny Sharrock, January’s news that the band would be performing Ask the Ages, Sharrock’s 1991 masterpiece, along with frequent collaborator James Brandon Lewis as part of Philadelphia’s Ars Nova Workshop series seemed like pure wish fulfillment.

I wasn’t able to make that gig — which went down in April, at the invitation of Ars Nova’s Mark Christman — but thankfully, there are more Ask the Ages shows on the horizon for the band, the punk-jazz trio combining guitarist Anthony Pirog with Fugazi’s rhythm section of bassist Joe Lally and drummer Brendan Canty. One of those, ahead of upcoming appearances in France, will take place in Washington, D.C., at the Hamilton Live on Friday, Nov. 28. Opening is cellist Janel Leppin, who played a gorgeous version of the Ask the Ages ballad “Who Does She Hope to Be?” the last time I saw her perform, a couple years back in Brooklyn. (NB: Skullcap, a trio featuring Leppin, Pirog and drummer Mike Kuhl, released a record earlier this year that you should absolutely check out.)

I recently jumped on a Zoom with Pirog, Lally and Canty to discuss their affinity for Ask the Ages, and the humbling and inspiring experience of making this music their own. This interview has been very lightly edited for flow and clarity.

(Before we begin, just a quick house-keeping note: Future original interviews and essays on DFSBP will likely be paywalled, so if you enjoy what you read here, please consider a paid subscription!)

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You covered “Once Upon a Time,” a piece from Ask the Ages, as far back as your first record. How did the idea of playing Sonny Sharrock material first come about?

Joe Lally: It was early on in the practice space. That was Brendan’s little recording studio where both of our first records were recorded, above a restaurant here in D.C. We were at practice one day, and that’s an album I love — a friend of mine had turned me onto it years ago — and I came to practice doing a half-assed version of “Once Upon a Time,” thinking about it, trying to play the riff. And Anthony was like, “Oh, this is how you play it.” I’m not the best that way. That’s how I discovered that — well, Anthony can take it from here, but basically, Anthony had played that whole record with Janel Leppin.

Anthony Pirog: Yeah, we bonded over the record in the Messthetics, but my first performance as a bandleader in D.C. was covering this record. So I had a quintet, and I’d just started listening to it in my early twenties, and it meant a lot to me, and I wanted to learn what was going on. So I wrote up charts and Janel was kind of doing the guitar-overdub parts from the record, and then there was sax, upright [bass] and drums. So I already knew how to play the songs, and [Sharrock’s] approach to playing and composing has always just kind of been on my mind since my early twenties.

I’m curious how you each first heard Ask the Ages, and also what first struck you about the record, and what has drawn you back to it over the years.

Brendan Canty: I came to it through Joe and Anthony. I didn’t know this record. When we were forming as a band, [Ask the Ages] was clearly a real touchstone for both of those guys. And so we would listen to it on the road, and when we would play it in the car, they knew it backwards and forward and clearly loved it and shared that passion. So I came to it through them. Even though I loved Elvin Jones and I had seen Elvin Jones [live], when this record came out, it just was not on my radar.

JL: Anthony’s probably going to give a longer dissertation on this, so I can give my short version first, but a friend had turned me on to it — actually, someone who is from D.C. but lives in Philly now, Yanni Papadopoulos [of Stinking Lizaveta]. And I had put out Yanni’s records, and it was just part of turning each other onto music at some point. He was just like, “I think you’ll love this record.” And I think he sent me the CD, is how I first got it. And it just really struck me as not the kind of electric guitar and distorted guitar that I had really equated with jazz per se. I don’t know what the point is of stating genres, but it just was a record that I totally enjoyed for what felt like such free expression.

That was all intriguing to me because I was probably just a few years into really getting into — well, it was probably more than a few years — of trying to figure out the free jazz that I loved. And the other part of that was the way that record sounds, the production of that record. But it’s the songs, but it’s not just the songs because it’s being able to feel like you’re in almost a classic jazz situation with an upright bass, drums and saxophone, and you can hear where you are sort of placed in the room, but the guitar is still, like, wild guitar. It’s still really heavy, very distorted, just really interesting-sounding guitar with effects that doesn’t overwhelm that feeling of a classic jazz album of being in a room with people playing. So that was just so particular and really, really just made the sound of that record stay with me.

“Who Does She Hope to Be?” always reminded me of Hendrix a bit, and of course it’s not at all. And yet there was something that I could relate to that, but by the time I’m playing with Anthony, I’d been into the record for a good decade. So it was it just a big record that stuck with me.

AP: I don’t remember why or how I ended up with it, but I had a digital version of it early on, ’cause I don’t even think I could buy it on CD when I wanted to own it; it ws out of print, so there was, like, one copy for $99 on the internet. And I just remember hearing it and just having a very strong reaction to the music. I didn’t really understand why initially; it was just very exciting. And then I played it for Janel, and I was like, “I really love this record.” And she’s like, “Wow, it really sounds like all the players in this band really believe in [Sharrock’s] vision, and they’re really just there supporting it.” And that’s one of the main things that I think about when I think about this recording.

Like Joe’s saying, there’s a lot of stuff going on with distorted guitar, which you might not expect if you’re going to categorize it or put a label on it. There are overdubs, but the intensity and the commitment and the belief that they’re all playing with is just something very special. And again, it’s not always easy to capture this stuff on tape, but as a recording, it’s very powerful.

And then once I started digging into, like, “Why do I like this?” I was learning the songs. I was young, so I was like, “Well, he’s a jazz guitarist,” so I was trying to figure out seventh-chord kind of movements, and then it just clicked really quickly. I was like, “Oh, these are all barre chords,” so it’s all triadic-based harmony. So even Joe brought up “Who Does She Hope to Be?” — when you get that melody, it goes, [sings main theme]. Those are the top notes of barre chords.

So for me, I was reacting very strongly to the music of Satie. And everyone talks about the simplicity, and the emotional content that could be conveyed with the simplicity of the idea. This kind of brought it into the improvised realm, the jazz realm, even just getting the most music out of — I’m not trying to put it down, but just the simple idea. And I don’t like saying that it’s a simple idea because it’s a springboard for very intense playing, and it’s a springboard for everyone to kind of play however they want and to go as deeply as they want with the music. But as Joe said, too, the chord progressions are really beautiful, the harmonic movements are really beautiful, the melodies are incredibly strong, and the form is going. Even though you might think that they’re playing freely, the chord progressions of the forms are continually happening underneath all of that material. And it was really just an amazing display of what’s possible when everything’s there to use.

Yeah, there’s a recording online of the Philly show, and on “Promises Kept,” I like how you can hear the bass and drums holding down the form throughout. Did you think a lot about the arrangements or how you were going to modify these pieces to fit your style?

JL: Well, I would’ve had to ask Anthony, “How am I going to get at this?” Again, it’s not really simple, but it’s like a distilling of just what’s needed, which is the way I like to look at things anyway: distilling it and going, “Just this part is necessary.” And having said that, there’s no way in my lifetime will I ever play like the bass player, Charnett Moffett, on any of these songs. And that guy’s within a couple of years of my age, and I believe he passed away a few years ago, but jeez, what an unbelievable player he is.

And so the combination of something basic going on and then listening to him play, that doesn’t even make sense; I don’t know what to do with any of that. So if you give me an outline of how I can get at holding down a rhythmic idea, melody, whatever you want to call it, for the bass, I feel those songs for sure. And so it’s a matter of getting into just finding the direction that I can sort of lay the notes, and the rest I can feel. I always kind of hear them in my head and understand where they’re placed, and then I try and figure out what they are later. So having Anthony just go like, “Well, you want to move through these ideas,” and then I can sort of play off of that starting point and figure out what to do. But yeah, I’m always trying to groove with what we do, so that’s really what was happening.

AP: After we had done “Once Upon a Time” and adapted that composition into our thing — ’cause, I mean, on the original recording, Elvin Jones is taking a free solo while they’re playing the chords, and our version is a chord progression in seven, and Brendan’s playing in four — the exciting thing was, what can we do with this? What are we going to do with this? And there wasn’t a lot of discussion about it; we just kind of did our thing, ’cause we’re so used to playing with each other. And I will just say that I was excited for parts of the record where I wanted to stick to some of the form from — where, like, Charnett and Elvin are playing duo over the form, over two choruses in “Promises Kept.” It was really important for me to say, “I think that you guys should do that, ‘cause the results are going to be very interesting. If James and I are just not playing, and you continue to play over the form and have your dialogue with that material, it’s going to make for an interesting listen and take on the music.” So, I was excited with the results, for sure.

BC: The more I listen to the record, the more I try to at least pull out some of the vibe and the mood and the dynamics of what they’re doing a little bit. But there’s no escaping who I am, and I like to play the way I play, and those are all choices, especially like on “Once Upon a Time,” and playing fours over sevens.

But to be honest with you, that has even changed as time has gone on and it actually has become more of a quieter piece and I feel like I’m a little bit more responding to what the guys are playing on it. So a big part of this band and a big part of everything we do is trying to be a good listener and trying to not just support Anthony and James along with Joe, but also to somewhat have a dialogue with them along the way, where it doesn’t necessarily have to be one thing over and over again, night after night. It can actually be a dialogue or I can be more responsive than some of the songs that we have even written. But I think the whole band is turning into that: a more free-form live experience, which is really lovely.

Yeah, you can really hear you all stretching out and improvising in the Philly recording. It sounds really nice.

BC: Oh, that’s good. I’m glad it works. You don’t know, but I think even the songs that we’re playing these days are by design stretching out more and more, following more of a jazz template where we play the head and let it go for a little while and launch, as they say. So yeah, I’m glad you’re hearing something that sounded like something. It really felt like we were creating a bonfire and then jumping in it over and over again. It was really fun.

Anthony and Joe, you two were sort of getting at this, but this record seems to be kind of crisscrossing styles, but not in the same way as what we typically think of as fusion.

AP: Yeah, I think absolutely, just because it’s not trying to be anything other than what they want to do.

BC: I mean, to me the record is four really strong personalities, and I don’t think that there’s anything, like, standard jazz about it. I mean, Elvin is always going to play like Elvin. His personality comes through on every record he’s ever made, so ultimately, whoever assembled this team — and I know Bill Laswell produced it, but I don’t know whose idea it was to get Pharaoh Sanders, and I actually don’t know the bass player. But the truth of it is, when you listen to it, everybody seems to be given complete license to be themselves and to react to each other in whatever heartfelt way they felt they want to, and that’s exactly the way that this band works.

So, yeah, we’re all playing the same tunes, but we are, in our band and in that band, and with James, everybody has been given the license. It’s not like anybody has ever told anybody else in this band what to play or how to play it. We show up with our personalities and our sounds and our impulses, and then we throw it together and make it happen. And that record sounds like that to me.

I mean, starting with Sonny Sharrock, who has one of the most distinctive sounds on the planet, but then also allowing for overdubs, allowing for the band to stretch, and also there clearly is a shit-ton of dialogue on it between them and they’re amping each other up. And then also to make a record that’s jazz, but also so full-throated rock in a way, sound-wise — his guitar sound has definitely got a rock vibe to it. There’s nothing careful or easy-listening about it, as far as I’m concerned. There’s some beautiful playing and some soft playing, and I adore it, but it has a spirit all the way through it that is really individual.

JL: Yeah, it doesn’t get classified very easily at all, I don’t think. It’s one of those records that stays with you as being different because it’s outside of genres and it’s just absolutely unique. And other people have records like that, and Sonny Sharrock has other records that are very unique and not like this one and stand out on their own. It’s just one of those things: It’s so totally different. And then, yeah, we’re just going to be who we are and interpret.

One of the wild things about the record, I think, is that Charnett is like 20 years younger than everybody else. So what is going on? [Laughs] Whose dad did he know? He’s like the son of someone they knew, or something?

AP: Yeah, he’s [drummer] Charles Moffett’s son. His name is a combination of “Ornette” and “Charles.”

JL: Oh, wow, OK. Cool — I didn’t know that.

Yeah, I’m not sure exactly how he got drafted into the whole thing*, but it is really interesting because I guess that’s Sonny’s last record, and his first record was also with Pharaoh.

AP: Was it Tauhid?

Yeah, I could be wrong, but I think that’s the first Sonny Sharrock appearance on record.

There’s something else I wanted to run by you all. There’s a quote that Sonny gave that I always come back to, and he said this around the time of Ask the Ages: “I’ve been trying to find a way for the terror and the beauty to live together in one song.” And then he says, “I want the sweetness and the brutality, and I want to go to the very end of each of those feelings.” So there’s this kind of duality that he’s thinking about, that’s obviously embodied in this record. I think in some ways it’s embodied in your band, even when you’re not covering Sonny Sharrock. I’m wondering if that resonates with you in terms of how you think about the unique appeal of this record.

JL: Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely the way the record sounds, and it’s definitely the way I want to be a musician. I mean, we all want to express musically more than anything. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

BC: I’m listening to that quote and I’m thinking about all the dynamics of a situation and how you can get there by yourself and it’s one thing, but you get there as a group, and it’s a totally different thing, right? And you only go to some of these places when you can do it together. That’s the way I feel it. Especially as a drummer, I’m not able to journey to all the potential places that you can travel to musically without these guys. And so to me, that’s a huge part of the reason for being in a band, for being a band, is to find out those sides of the music, the sweetness and the darkness, and where your potential stops and starts, and all that. Anthony, do you have anything to say about that?

AP: Yeah, I wasn’t aware of that quote until after I was very familiar with the record and his playing. But it makes a lot of sense to me, and it makes a lot of sense to what I’m drawn to. And there are other bands and people that I know that means a lot to as well. Like Harriet Tubman has a record named after that quote. It’s a pursuit. It’s important and worth doing.

Just to wrap up, is there any kind of new appreciation for or perspective on Ask the Ages that you have after going through this process of playing it?

JL: Well, definitely being able to play these songs at all is very encouraging and inspiring. [Laughs] I mean, I still listen to the record and go, “That’s not really what we’re playing.” It’s just a whole other universe. To be able to occupy it in any way feels good. But it is a completely different thing to listen to. It’s like trying to get to Saturn.

BC: The more I listen to the record, and the more we play the parts, the more it becomes something that’s separate from us as a band, but also separate from the actual original record because our interpretation of it seems to be changing every time we play it, every time we get together. As you would want it to be.

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*According to this 2020 interview with Bill Laswell by Tzvi Gluckin, we actually have Ronald Shannon Jackson to thank for Charnett Moffett’s involvement in Ask the Ages.